Oral History

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Lady Kinnaird, interviewed by Heather Berger, 23/2/99

HB Lady Kinnaird, you said that you married in 1940. Was that your first connection with Rossie. 

LK Yes,it was during the war and we were living in London at the time, so we used to come up whenever we could get leave, about a week at a time,and get away from the bombs which was very nice.

HB Were the family living at Rossie at that time? I mean, your husband’s parents?

LK No, or only in part of it, because most of it was in a hospital, a convalescent home and they were living in a wing at the side. Although my mother-in-law did have a certain amount to do with the hospital, there were some very indomitable matrons who didn’t want to be interfered with! [laughter]. And there was one who was a sister of Nurse Cavell, the one who was shot in the war by the Germans, I don’t know if you remember? And this particular matron got across Henderson, who was our odd-job man who did everything and who spoke his mind, and my father-in-law had to have a word with him because he had been very rude to matron, and he said to him, Oh Henderson, you know you really must treat her with much more respect. You know her sister was the famous Nurse Cavell who was shot I think for helping the British “Och” said Henderson,”they shot the wrong woman.”[laughter]. So that was one of our early times with the hospital, but it remained a hospital all during the war.

HB During the whole of the war?

LK Yes.

HB It would have closed in 1945?

LK Yes, 45. I can’t remember exactly. After that, most of it was pulled down. Most of Rossie was pulled down. 

HB Oh, was it? I didn’t realise that a huge amount had been pulled down. 

LK Well, it was enormous, 50 bedrooms, and the whole thing was riddled with dry rot. And the hospital had caused a certain amount of damage, so then nobody wanted to live in it. We offered it to various organisations, but nobody wanted it. So, the answer seemed to be to pull it down, which was very sad but…….…………. 

HB There’s still quite a bit left!

LK As someone said the other day, I don’t think you pulled enough down! [laughter]. 

HB So when you were married, your husband was the Master of Kinnaird ?
LK Yes.

HB Just out of interest what was your title at that time, were you the mistress of Kinnaird?

LK No, I was often introduced as that but I wasn’t. No, I was just Mrs Kinnaird.

HB Mrs Kinnaird. And when did your husband succeed to the title?

LK I don’t remember the date, isn’t it dreadful, it must have been about 63, about 30 years ago, I suppose. 

HB So about 1960 something.

LK Yes. Isn’t that dreadful not to  remember the date. {laughter].

HB Oh, well it was a very long time ago. So after that time you probably just came up for holidays, did you?

LK Yes. My mother-in-law died soon after that, after they went back to the house after much of it was pulled down, and my father-in-law lived there for some time. We used to go up whenever we could for holidays to see him. And it was a bit lonely for him. And then he became very ill and he didn’t know where he was. It was Perkins, actually, who looked after him mostly and then it all became too difficult and my husband was advised that he really must go and have proper help. So he went to Fernbrae after that where he was properly looked after. And he was there until he died. 

HB Yes, so you don’t really remember Rossie in its heyday?

LK Not in its heyday, I wish I had. It would have been lovely when it was open and full of people. But they weren’t there all the time, they used to come up for Christmas, Easter, and quite a long time in the summer. 

HB And there would be a permanent staff there?

LK Skeleton staff. 

HB Skeleton staff, and then…..? 

LK They bought everybody up with them.

HB Oh they bought them from London?

LK Yes.

HB How did the incomers get on with the skeleton staff?

LK Oh, very well I think, I can’t remember who the skeleton staff were, but it was really caretakers just looking after the house. And the main staff came up when wanted, really.

HB So Perkins was down in London?

LK Perkins was footman at Rossie for some time, he’s probably told you all this. And he was butler to the house in London.

HB Oh, I see.

LK And then in the war, when they left the house in London, he was working at Bridge of Earn for some time I think. 

HB Oh, yes, I think it was a story about how he used to bicycle to Bridge of Earn?

LK Yes he used to bicycle from Bridge of Earn because he was madly in love with Molly, who was one of the housemaids, head housemaid, and he used to bicycle, I shouldn’t be saying this, it is personal, but he used to bicycle miles so he could see Molly, and then they got married.

HB They got married so that’s all right! [laughter]. So your first memories of Rossie were when it was requisitioned as a hospital, or most of it.

LK Yes, and we didn’t go into the main house much, because well because it was a hospital and we didn’t want to treat it as our own home. But I did meet someone the other day, at a meeting in Dundee -the Archaeological Society I think- where they were talking about one of Graham’s ancestors, George Wiliam Fox, and at the end the lecturer asked if I knew anything about him, so I got up and said what I knew about him, because I had researched him quite a lot. Then one of the audience, someone quite elderly, like me, got up and said he’d been a patient at Rossie, at the convalescent home, which he’d liked very much. And I said I hoped he wasn’t one of the ones who threw darts at the pictures! [laughter].

HB I was going to ask you what had happened to all the works of art during the time it was a hospital?

LK Well the big ones were too big to move. I think they were all right. There was the odd occasion when things were thrown, but….

HB And were they mostly local boys, or men, who were patients?

LK No, they were sent from all over, all over the country, and people were convalescing from war wounds and things like that, because its a wonderful place and so peaceful. I hope some of them went away with happy memories of it. 

HB Yes, I am sure they would have. But meantime the outside staff and the farm would still be running ?

LK The farm was being run, because there was a very strict agricultural policy in the war, I forget who the staff were, they weren’t very mechanised in those days, and a lot of people of course had to go to the war. 

HB Did you have Land Girls, do you remember?

LK I think we had one in the garden. The garden was very much cut down to size, and the gardener then was MacRitchie, the first one I knew. Did you know him? No. I think he died, he was before Chalmers. 

HB He had quite a large staff in the garden after the war, I would imagine? Certainly before the war.

LK Well in the 20’s I believe the staff was about 20.

HB In the garden?

LK In the garden. Because it was used for agricultural purposes, no not agricultural, horticultural purposes and we used to sell a lot. And we also provided the hospital with a great deal of food too, a great deal of  vegetables, and I think there were about four regular staff and two students, young ones. 

HB During the war? 

LK During the war, yes. But it’s a big area of garden. And then of course, it slowly diminished and after the war we were down to four I think, counting an apprentice. And it has sunk ever since. 

HB And then of course there’d be the keepers and foresters?

LK Yes the forestry, I think there were about four in the forestry department, of which Ronnie Rank was one.

HB Oh yes [laughter] . Well Rossie must have been one of the major employers in the area.

LK I suppose so in this district, cos everything was diminished in the war. It was one of the biggest employers of people, and a big estate. Its sad now that they are now not as big as they were, and really canÕt afford to employ the people any more. 

HB It is very sad. Well, now the little lodge in Inchture beyond the school there, that was, was that the original main entrance to Rossie when you first remember, or not? Where the Wellingtonias are. 

LK You mean, by Baledgarno?

HB No, I was thinking of in Inchture Village there.

LK Yes. That was the main one. 

HB The main entrance. The dual carriageway wasnÕt, wouldnÕt have been there when you were,

LK No. Thats what really, in a way, cut us off from the village in a strange way. Yes, it wasnÕt the same, cos the drive went right down, and was used a lot, the main drive, right down into the village. And it was also, Inchture on Sunday was quite an effort because we had to walk. [laughter] We had to walk, it was a good two miles. 

HB Oh I am sure it is, yes.

LK And, um, we nearly always did walk to church. Because a). there wasnÕt petrol to take you around, 

HB This was during and after the war?

LK Yes, 

HB At that time, of course, the South Church would have been closed by then, was it or not? No,

LK No. No that was going. 

HB So you went to each one in turn?

LK Yes. Longforgan was the longest walk but I think we took the car to the Lodge Gates and walked from there. But Abernyte was quite a walk too. But I enjoyed going to Abernyte because the church itself is so pretty. ItÕs the original cruciform, isnÕt it? ItÕs the oldest church too isnÕt it, I think, by a long way. Yes, pre-reformation IÕm sure, and em, you know we knew everybody or most people who went to church. We had a pew jut round the corner sono-onecould see what we were doing! [laughter]

HB And you were saying Miss Miller played the organ?

LK Miss Miller played the organ, yes. Very well, and I think her sister sang. There was a choir, and being a, Church of England as I was then, IÕd never been, oh I had been at the Church of Scotland, because most of my family, my motherÕs family, were Church of Scotland and em, I was brought up with that although she was very much a high church lady. But I was brought up the Church of Scotland and it was quite, quite an experience to come to a small church and find, not, an altar, not with the priest behind it but with the entire choir and the Misses Millers [laughter].

HB Yes it is and thereÕs no set liturgy like in the episcopalian church.

LK No, no, no thats the one disadvantage, I shouldnÕt say this but the Church of Scotland, doesnÕt happen now but if you get prayer, what do you call it when it goes on, when it, when the minister can go on praying as long as he likes you just donÕt know when its going to end, do you? 

HB Well, we had one the other day and we couldnÕt hear a word he said, I think he must have had a direct line to the Almighty, but er, I must admit as an Episcopalian, I miss the set....[aeroplane overhead]

LK What do you call it? Extemporary prayer?

HB Yes, thats right. 

LK And a very extemporary sermon. I remember the ones in the South Kirk, in the wee free, much fiercer than the sermons in the North Kirk and we were quite often told we were going to eternal damnation.

HB The whole congregation?

LK Well most of them, all of us, yes. If we didnÕt do this, that and the other. And my mother-in-law, who was a very devout lady, knew her bible back to front, and she used to get very annoyed when the minister semed to go off channel a bit and quote things that werenÕt there and there were a lot of tut tuting Òhat man doesnÕt know what heÕs talking about and oh, really!Ó And directly after the service she was round into the vestry like a bullet from a gun telling Mr Gilmour exactly where he had gone wrong, and the noise that came out from the vestry was not very Christian, I donÕt think. 

HB Did he object to this?

LK Well I think he didnÕt, he wasnÕt used to being hauled over the coals for what he spoke. What he spoke about, by, particularly a woman too.

HB Perhaps he wasnÕt used to having people who,

LK Knew their stuff. That was one of the excitements at the South Kirk. but sometimes, when it sadly became a garage, and I used to hear this voice thundering out over the air, I thought, I think Mr GilmourÕs come back! [laughter].

HB ThatÕs the tannoy, we used to get that up at em,

LK Dreadful noise wasnÕt it?

HB Depends which way the windÕs blowing.

LK But you didnÕt get that sort of thing in Abernyte, somehow. I think he calmed down a bit, being a, Abernyte being Presbyterian, isnÕt it?

HB Yes, Yes.

LK Yes. Much easier to swallow. 

HB And er, what about Rossie Church, cos Rossie, the church that was restored I believe. 

LK The old Rossie or the Rossie Chapel?

HB Oh, there are two are there, is that right?

LK Well, thereÕs the chapel in the house itself.

HB Ah. And that is still standing or was that?

LK Oh standing and used. Rossie Chapel you see. Not so much as it was in the old days. But, em, yes it has been used, itÕs been used for christenings and my daughterÕs, one of my daughterÕs weddings.

HB Oh yes, I think I remember that.

LK And my husbandÕs memorial service was there. No, the other chapel you are talking about is the old Rossie one.

HB Is that at Baledgardno somewhere?

LK No thatÕs right over by the road going up the wall to the Knapp. You donÕt see it from the road. 

HB No. And when was that? Was that used in your memory?

LK No, its a memorial chapel, really now. Its, um, it was pre-reformation and the roof came off and its great disrepair but my husbandÕs great aunt, um, who was known as Dar Kinnaird, Lady Frances Kinnaird, was a staunch Presbyterian, and I think found life up here rather difficult when she came. She had a roof put on and I donÕt know if it was ever used but thereÕs tombs from Kinnairds going back 200 years and its a nice chapel. And it must have been the village church when the village of old Rossie was down the..

HB Down, down the ....

LK Down by the burn, yes, where the market cross still stands.

HB Oh yes. Thats right, yes. But the chapel in the house, was that used for family prayers? Did they have family prayers in you day or not?

LK Oh, yes. We used to have them, even before the war it was used a lot because my mother-in-law used to have people staying, and part of it, if they were in the church was that they should conduct services on Sundays, so it was used a lot then and she ran a very successful Sunday school there which I think, when, it was all moved down to Inchture, I think there was a bit of a battle over something, I donÕt ken what,  I think it might have been somehting in the way that Sunday school was being taught but anyhow eventually it all was transferred to Inchture which was probably much better. I mean, she did a lot of good work but then as she got older she couldnÕt manage it and the war broke it up too.

HB But the staff, before the war, the staff would have been expected to go to family prayers every morning presumably?

LK Oh, every morning, oh yes! Before breakfast. If you werenÕt there it was not all approved of. As the gong rang at 9 oÕclock there was no panting in at five past nine! [laughter].

HB But that was, the war would have put an end to that?

LK No we had it with a very diminished staff. Perkins used to come, I think that was about all.

HB Every day?

LK Every morning.

HB Every morning.

LK Except Sundays. 

HB I suppose you went to church on Sundays.

LK We went to church on .... 

HB Yes. 

LK But I believe in the old days when there was a full staff they used to have morning prayers in the Picture Gallery which was a very big room. And everybody came to that. 

HB On pain of death I should think if they didnÕt. 

LK Probably have been sacked. And I don't know about that generation but Lady Frances, who was the Episcoplian one, who built All Souls Church in Invergowrie, she used to, she got the chapel done, it was a raquets court, but she turned it into a chapel and its really very beautiful. And she wouldnÕt employ anyone in the ch, in the house, as servants unless they could sing! [laughter].

HB Oh well, I hope they could perform their other duties equally...

LK I think singing came first. 

HB I was just reading a little book about the silver wedding of Lord and  Lady Kinnaird in 1900 which somebody lent me and it, er, was fascinating to see how very closely connected the family was and Rossie was with the whole area and the...

LK Yes, they did a lot. That would have been Arthur Kinnaird, presumably, 

HB Em, and his wife was Alma was that right?

LK ThatÕs right. Alma Victoria. Yes, she was tiny, and a great presence, so IÕm told. 

HB They had terrific celebrations for the silver wedding....

LK Yes they did.

HB And the coming of age of their eldest son. 

LK Yes, sadly he was killed in the Ô14 war within the first six months. She lost two sons in the war, and one who was badly wounded so she had rather a sad life. And then before that, Dar Kinnaird and, they had three children, two sons died of, I think it was tuberculosis, and the daughter who married an Ogilvie from near Dundee she died when she was 32. So they were pre-deceased by all their children. And then, it then went to her brother,

HB Ah.

LK His brother.

HB His brother. 

LK Who was a staunch.... em.

HB Would that have been your husbandÕs grandfather, or great grandfather?

LK Great Uncle.

HB Oh, great uncle, yes. Well, who was it who did all the wonderful planting of trees in the grounds? Was that that generation?

LK I don't know, have to look up the forestry records, my daughter knows more about it than I do now. Em, I think most of it must have been quite a lot of the trees were planted when they built the house which was about, finished in1807, which is the same date as this little house. Some of them remain, now it was a big, em, they all call them different names now which is so difficult, there's a big Douglas over there which must be a good hundred years old. But I found Douglas Kinnaird who was killed alas in 1914, um he was very keen tree man and I found a whole list of all the plantings then. And its sad how many tres are gone through old age and storms and everything like that and a lot of like you do in forestry, a lot of planting was done to make up for it but it takes a lot to replace a hundred year old tree.

HB Well it does, I suppose you just have to keep constantly replacing ....

LK Yes. But it is fairly well known for its trees because of the soil here, cos when this was all,um, water, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, when it subsided and went back it left this wonderful alluvium soil and a belt the whole way along here, and this is what produced these amazing trees, mostly.

HB You say Lady Kinnaird that your, er, in-laws that they played a very important part in the church and the local..

LK Yes, but he did a lot in the county too. He was President of the Red Cross in the war, worked very hard on that. He was Lord Lieutenant for quite a long time.

HB Of Perthshire?

LK Of Perthshire, yes. And she was a JP I think. And did a lot of social and charity work. And of course apart from the Red Cross and things went on a lot of that social work, not social I donÕt mean that, charity work came to a bit of a halt. And after the war she was getting, well she was getting older. 

HB What sort of proportion of their time would they have spent up here, as far as you can remember, would they have been half their time or less than that?

LK Well they used to be in London for most of the year, coming up for , over Christmas for a long time, over Easter and then the summer when the house filled up, but in wartime, they lived in London up until then and then they moved up to Rossie during the war and lived there. I remember them ringing me up, we were both in London living in the basement of the London house in the middle of the blitz and things were coming down quite hard, [laughter] and she rang up, she used to ring up quite a lot, and said ÒWeÕve had a perfectly terrible night you know, we had this awful raid.Ó I said, ÒOh goodness is Rossie all right, whatÕs happened to Inchture?Ó ÒOh thank goodness its all right they did drop one incendiary bomb in Inchture in the field behind!Ó Which, you know, sounded rather peaceful when you were living with the blitz.

HB Well I suppose there wasnÕt, werenÕt an awful lot of targets were there in this particular area?

LK I donÕt think so, no. 

HB There must have been a great oasis of peace and calm to come up here.

LK Wonderful, absolutely..

HB Did you look forward to coming up?

LK Always, yes. And rather strange railway journeys up quite often, too. 

HB Did you take the train from London to Dundee?

LK Or Perth, sometimes.

HB Perth, and then by car?

LK And earlier on, when the railway was built from Dundee to Perth, em, I think it was George Kinnaird who did quite a lot towards making it go. It had to go through land all the way here you had to get permission for it. And part of the permission given was on the understanding that when wanted you could stop the train at Inchture. 

HB Oh, it didnÕt stop normally at Inchture did it?

LK Well it did but if you wanted to go, catch up with the sleeper there you could have it stopped. Which was wonderful, of course, well that stopped fairly quickly as you can imagine! [laughter]. It dosnÕt work any more now. 

HB Yes, IÕm afraid the Priory land has been rather bitten in to with all these things. 

HB Well, originally they went down to the river but um, then my husbandÕs grandfather died, they had to sell a lot of land then to pay death duties. And then, who was it who died next? And they had to sel some more and been selling ever since because the taxes have been so heavy. And as everybody knows, farming dosnÕt pay as it used to. [laughter]. No. 

HB ThereÕd have been a lot of tenants reading this little book I was telling you about, the number of Rossie tenants were quite....

LK Everything was tenanted pretty well then. 

HB You didnÕt have any in hand so to speak?

LK Yes we had the farm in hand, Home Farm, yes. ThatÕs good, which is quite a big area. I donÕt know how much, but literally between all the walls. And there was the hill farm as well.

HB And there were lots of activities like the curling and the cricket which involved the....

LK Curling was very important. IÕve got a wonderful photo of my grandfather-in-law and my father-in-law curling. He was very keen on curling, its a lovely picture, heÕs sucking his pipe throwing his puck. And of course in those days you know if the ice was bearing, they lit a bonfire up on Rossie Hill and everybody dropped everything and started to curl.

HB Yes, I gathered it was rather a sort of three line whip when Lord Kinnaird wanted to curl...

LK Oh very much! I think everybody else wanted to curl [?] to get up out of a rather damp field and go and enjoy yourself! [laughter] Alas, that dosnÕt happen any more I donÕt think. 

HB Well perhaps we donÕt get enough frost.

LK No we donÕt, no. I donÕt think thereÕs been any to hold this year, has there?

HB I doubt it. 

LK I think everybody goes to the Perth rink too. 

HB Yes, its warmer in there.

LK Yes. [laughter]

HB But you remember curling down there ?

LK I remember curling cos I coming up as a very young bride thinking oh,  ice holding, IÕll get hold of my skates. My husband saying, youÕd better not youÕll be very unpopular! [laughter].

HB And the cricket as well, that still goes on.

LK Very successfully too. They are wonderful, the Cricket, the Rossie Cricket Club. And theyÕve done fairly well. My two grandsons now go and play a bit in the junior team, they go down for coaching on, like everybody else, which is very popular. 

HB That was very, I suppose all these things packed up during the war more or less, did they or..?

LK I think that, you would have to check this with Mr Pepper, but I think the Rossie Cricket Club went on all through the war. In a dimininished way, but I mean they didnÕt plough up the pitch or anything. I seem to remember it.

HB They had cricket then as all sorts of things. 

LK Yes, and there was the great celebrations of, was it, 150 years?

HB Of the cricket club?

LK Yes, when everybody dressed up in outfits. 

HB Would you remember when that was, roughly?

LK YouÕd have to check that with Mr Pepper! [laughter].

HB It was obviously after the war sometime?

LK Yes, and we played a team from the MCC which I think it would be a fairly junior team. I donÕt know. And everybody dressed up in, in the sort of clothes that they wore in those days. And IÕve got wonderful pictures of those.  And we drove down from Rossie in a carriage with two horses, dressed up too, and my husband, em, spoke to television, did very well. All about it, asking what his grandfather would think about these days and it was a wonderful, they had dances and all sorts of things. But youÕll learn far more about that from the Cricket Club. 

HB From the Cricket Club, yes.

LK Of course, by the time you came it would be all cars and the days of horses and carriages were gone?

HB They were quite gone, yes. 

LK You must have had huge stables and, where were the stables at Rossie?

LK Just at the house.

HB Oh, by the house.

LK By the arch, yes, they are lovely stables. They are the same as when they were built. 

HB They always put such alot of attention to outbuildings didnÕt they?

LK They are beautiful stables. And, em,

HB What are they used for now?

LK Oh, not any horses. When we moved up here later I managed to fill the stables up Ôcos all the children rode so it was nice to get, nice to have them going again. And theyÕre lovely stables and they havenÕt been altered at all, theyÕve still got the horses heads on the end of the boxes where they put the chains and the bit and once they were all harnessed up to go out, so they didnÕt turn round and get dirty, (whatÕs that traffic here!) um, theyÕre still there, the reins and everything. 

HB And after the war when um, things had returned to normal did you still have quite large house parties for shooting and this sort of thing? 

LK Shooting was let in the war. What there was of it. And it went on being let for some time. No we didnÕt, because my parents-in-law lived there you see until quite late, later, and they didnÕt particularly want large parties. And I think the first one when we came to live at Rossie, we gave a dance for two of our daughters and the first time there had beena dance at Rossie for 100 years. So that, you know, brightened things up a bit. You filled the whole house, do love it, you know being filled up with people.

HB Was the first part of this century must have been a wonderful era to , and the end of the last century, for a big house. 

LK I think so. I donÕt know a lot about that. 

HB Well with 50 bedrooms presumably sometimes they filled...

LK They did have large house parties, according to the business book inthe summer. A lot of relations came to stay, according to that. And that went on, I think, for months and over Christmas and Easter of course they had all the family here. But I donÕt think, I think the last party to have was my husbandÕs 21st Birthday party which would have been, 22, 32, 33, and then they didnÕt have much after that. 

HB No, well I suppose the war came not long after that, didnÕt it?

LK Yes.

HB It was such an era of change, wasnÕt it.?

LK Totally, yes. 

HB I imagine its been the same in most big houses. 

LK I think so, its a question of getting smaller, diminishing, really. And trying to cope with the situations as they arise. Try to keep things going but its not easy particularly as they were getting on and old, they didnÕt want change. You donÕt, when you get that age do you? 

HB No, IÕm sure you donÕt. Particularly after [?], and by the time you came here , what in the 60Õs to take over as your husband as Lord Kinnaird..

LK This is awful, IÕm so awful on dates. We did come up soon after he went into a nursing home and they said you know, he couldnÕt come out because he needed expert nursing..

HB This is your father-in-law?

LK Yes, and we moved up soon after that. 

HB That wasnÕt, by that time, well it was some time after the war, presumably there had been a lot of changes by then?

LK Yes.

HB The scale of the operation.

LK Oh, yes. You mean, who was left at Rossie? Perkins. And his wife and that was it, and Mrs, em, Easton who used to come in, the daily,

HB Is she still?

LK And Mrs Young. Mrs Easton, no she died. She was George EastonÕs wife who was the odd man. And then they retired and lived in Baledgarno  for a bit and then they died. Its always sad when dear friends like that go, isnÕt it?

HB Well Baledgarno must have been almost entirely occupied by Rossie staff at that time was it?

LK Yes. Mostly outdoor staff I think. And then a couple of foresters lived down there, I mean Gordon lived down there, Mrs GordonÕs still there and the [?] lived there, em, who were the others? And Izzy Watt, she was a character, she was 92, she was one of the foresterÕs sisters. And Watt was her brother, otherwise they were mostly retired people or estate people. And were very, very em,proud of keeping it up too, its always been quite a showplace. 

HB Its lovely. And it still belongs, obviously its just let to people is it now the houses there? It still belongs to Rossie?

LK Still belongs to Rossie, and even with the diminished retirement staff, there arnÕt many people there except Mrs Gordon and, I donÕt know there arnÕt now, one of the Stoops I think is still there but he wasnÕt employed then. No, now theyÕre let if they come up but they donÕt come up very often. And thereÕs a long list of people waiting to come in, everybody wants to live there. 

HB And did you, did you, I suppose well certainly your mother-in-law would have visited all the estate workers and their families and this sort of thing?

LK Yes. 

HB Yes. So she would have known them all very well?

LK Yes. I think latterly it got a bit beyond her but she did go. I took over a certain amount when I got up here. 

HB Yes. Did you enjoy that?

LK Yes, very much. It was like visiting old friends at Christmastime or whatever.

HB Did you have, even sort of when you took over did you have Christmas celebrations for the staff?

LK No, because it would mean having the, it in the house and it would, they were getting too old then, my father and mother to manage it, um, there were nearly always some of the family went up for Christmas and we had a huge Christmas tree and it was lovely. And carols. You donÕt get carols now do you?

HB You mean people coming in to sing from the estate?

LK Baledgarno, yes. Mrs Wilson who used to live down at Baledgarno House she organised it. But that no more. 

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